Flat Giraffers

Giraffes and the claims about them.

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Flat Giraffers
windowseat

i think giraffes actually aren't real.

i have been thinking about this since yesterday and nobody has given me an answer that isn't just a picture of a giraffe.

the head is too far from the rest of it. you can make the legs longer or the neck longer but doing both is excessive. then somebody has added the little knobs. why the knobs. they don't do anything.

every picture that is supposed to prove a giraffe exists was taken by someone who went somewhere specifically to see a giraffe. that is not an independent sample. i have never found one accidentally. horses appear in places. a horse will be standing in a field you weren't expecting. all giraffes have an appointment.

also look at how they drink. that cannot be the approved way to drink. if i sold you something that needed to stand like that to reach water you would send it back.

i'm not saying they're people in suits. i don't think there is enough space. i'm saying we have accepted a drawing of an animal and then built a whole set of places where you are allowed to look at the drawing.

please stop sending me the same video. the video has a fence in it.

mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

You have ruled out every possible observation before asking for observations. An animal doesn't become imaginary because somebody put a fence around it.

303points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

the fence matters because somebody is controlling where you stand. nobody lets you look at the back.

71points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

I have seen the animal from behind. You still have to specify what would count as a clear view.

144points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

The drinking position is the part I cannot stop looking at. Why do the front legs have to go that far apart?

96points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

Ducks manage to drink with their heads down as well. Why would that be impossible?

85points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

ducks are quite a lot closer to the ground. i am asking about the amount of animal above the ground.

12points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

You started with distance from the head and you've moved to height from the ground. Which measurement would let you change your mind?

58points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

one in the car park would help. no ticket booth.

9points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

The little knobs could be protective, or something else. I have never seen a proper explanation of what they do.

44points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

They are called ossicones. Naming them is not an explanation of their use.

39points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

Did anyone ever get the view from behind? The replies keep going back to the front.

24points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

Someone has found that old Expose Giraffes site again. New thread here. I remembered this post first, then spent half an hour trying to find a bookmark in a browser I no longer have.

4points
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Flat Giraffers
nailbrush

he was seventeen when i was in primary school

Found the booklet from our school trip. Milo is seventeen in that one, seventeen in the 2013 guide and seventeen in this summer’s leaflet. I am thirty-one.

The three dates are in the pictures. My mum kept the school folder.

teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

Maybe he doesn't fill the form in either

31points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

They picked an age and nobody remembered it was supposed to change

42points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

It could be another animal with the same name

20points
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brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

The hooked patch above the right front leg is in all three

22points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

Then they could have reused the photograph

12points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

There are different people and different fences behind him. It's not the same photograph

18points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

Seventeen is the model, not the age

17points
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rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

Then why print it under age

9points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

Because they don't put model on the animal board

10points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

Found a 2009 one online. Same patch. Sent it to the poster

7points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

got it, thanks. I'll keep the three big ones in the post for now

5points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

This site is ridiculous sometimes. Three leaflets get an age wrong and suddenly it's a robot.

5points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

Bro's on Voss' payroll 😂

3points
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Flat Giraffers
wrenched

the centre of gravity is the part nobody answers

I have read the gravity section on Expose Giraffes twice and the replies I find keep arguing about whether people have seen one. That is not what the section is asking.

They are saying the animal is built the wrong way for the surface it stands on. A picture of it standing there does not explain how it stays there.

If we were to entertain the potentiality of the modern Flat Earth consensus, the question arises as to whether the center of gravity of a giraffe in nature would warrant a threat to its survival by natural selection through the expected pull off the surface as a result of its collective weight distribution and gravitational drag off of its surface.

The Gravitational Dilemma · Expose Giraffes
rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

People answer this with pictures of horses as though a horse has the same amount of neck above it.

48points
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metricsea
Collapse or expand reply by metricsea

You need to include the legs too. That is where most of the height comes from.

17points
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wrenched
Collapse or expand reply by wrenched

Yes. The whole thing. I am not just comparing necks.

14points
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sidechannel
Collapse or expand reply by sidechannel

The original page never says which direction the pull is supposed to be. It would help to draw it.

35points
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wrenched
Collapse or expand reply by wrenched

Off the surface. It says that in the paragraph.

24points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

That can mean over the edge or straight up. Those are different questions.

21points
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linen
Collapse or expand reply by linen

It says IF. You can disagree with the flat-earth part without pretending I missed the word.

19points
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sidechannel
Collapse or expand reply by sidechannel

I copied the whole paragraph. I am asking about the direction.

11points
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brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

If it has to spread its legs to get water, I do not see why we assume it has no balance problem when it is standing.

31points
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cansleeve
Collapse or expand reply by cansleeve

Because bending down changes where its weight is.

9points
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brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

That is the issue I am talking about.

13points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

Their problem is using gravity to explain it. The ground does not need to pull anything for an object to stay on it.

26points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

Then why is the height relevant?

7points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

I did not write the page. I said the explanation was wrong.

8points
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halfstep
Collapse or expand reply by halfstep

Was there an image on the old page showing where they put the weight? I remember something beside this and cannot find the same copy.

12points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

If the earth is not flat, the flat-earth part of this is not a problem a giraffe has to solve.

2points
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wrenched
Collapse or expand reply by wrenched

Fine, but that still does not explain the animal in the pictures.

4points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

It was your question about this paragraph.

1points
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Flat Giraffers
teaspoon

anybody still here from the old threads?

Found this in my bookmarks again. Does anyone still have the old photograph where they're working on the giraffe? I used to send that one to people and now I only have a very small copy.

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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

I still have the photograph with the loose covering saved. Never found where my copy came from.

39points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

People are still replying. Not as many names I recognise though.

28points
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vellum
Collapse or expand reply by vellum

There is a later announcement from the same paper as well. Someone linked both in Paper Trails.

18points
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ribbedglass
Collapse or expand reply by ribbedglass

I came back because the neck argument was still bothering me. I know how that sounds.

12points
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halfstep
Collapse or expand reply by halfstep

I thought Voss was an old username until I actually opened the circus paper.

3points
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Flat Giraffers
marl

three zoos. the same sneeze.

The pause afterwards is the bit. Watch the ear, not the neck. These are the original speeds. The three full clips are below the comparison.

Silent six-second clip beside a wooded fence; the head pulls back, an ear flicks, pauses and recovers.
Silent six-second clip beside a sunlit stone-wall enclosure; the head pulls back, an ear flicks, pauses and recovers.
Silent six-second clip beside a overcast paddock; the head pulls back, an ear flicks, pauses and recovers.
0.00 / 6.00 s
Three full clips · original speed
Silent six-second clip beside a wooded fence; the head pulls back, an ear flicks, pauses and recovers.
Silent six-second clip beside a sunlit stone-wall enclosure; the head pulls back, an ear flicks, pauses and recovers.
Silent six-second clip beside a overcast paddock; the head pulls back, an ear flicks, pauses and recovers.
mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

Animals have reflexes. People put a hand up when they cough. We don't all download it from the same place

41points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon
An anonymous adult figure coughs into an elbow.
27points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

I mean the ear flick after it stops. All three do it

18points
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brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

The third one pauses with the same foot off the ground as the first

28points
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cansleeve
Collapse or expand reply by cansleeve

So do people if they're about to sneeze while walking

13points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

They aren't moving at the same time. Why does the title make it sound like that

22points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

It doesn't. Different places, different days, same motion

14points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

At what point does an instinct become a permitted word for a routine

17points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

When it is an animal doing it. You are assuming the thing you're trying to prove

11points
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sidechannel
Collapse or expand reply by sidechannel

There's a second ear movement in the middle clip. Don't cut it off at the end

9points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

The full clip is there. I can see it.

7points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

Are we blaming Voss for sneezes now too

3points
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Flat Giraffers
indexcard

the little book is up

Role of the State. I’ve put sample pages beside the cover. Linen’s section is in there.

linen
Collapse or expand reply by linen

You kept the last paragraph

10points
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indexcard
Collapse or expand reply by indexcard

You asked me to

6points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

Is the uniformed giraffe on the actual cover?

9points
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indexcard
Collapse or expand reply by indexcard

Yes

7points
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cansleeve
Collapse or expand reply by cansleeve

The part about everyone taking photographs is better than the neck argument

8points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

The neck argument is still right

4points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

I've read the sample. I disagree with most of it but at least it doesn't stop in the middle of the claim.

5points
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Flat Giraffers
halfstep

before the battery is a very specific cutoff

Historical Sightings says they have not found a photograph from before the battery. People reply with paintings, which are a different kind of thing.

I want to separate the claim that a picture is old from the claim that it shows an independent encounter. A date printed under a later reproduction does not establish either on its own.

nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

Before photography would give you no photographs of anything. The question has to include which battery and which photographic process.

18points
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rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

The section says battery, not photography. That difference is exactly why the cutoff interests me.

14points
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halfstep
Collapse or expand reply by halfstep

A painting is still not the requested photograph. I am not saying a date under a painting is worthless; I am saying it answers something else.

9points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

I would take an old street picture more seriously than another animal portrait commissioned to show an animal.

12points
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moth
Collapse or expand reply by moth

There are photographs after batteries. That is the part I keep coming back to.

5points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

An old photograph can also have been commissioned. You need the history of the picture, not just a year in the filename.

3points
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Flat Giraffers
flatlander

the unicorn comparison is about acceptance

The comparison to the unicorn is not saying Scotland has a secret breeding population. It is pointing out that an animal can become an official fact without people asking whether there is an animal behind it.

We put the label in an official place and then treat the official place as confirmation of the label. That is what interests me about zoo signs too.

marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

A national symbol is not a biological claim. People can understand the unicorn as a symbol without believing it lives there.

5points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

Then you agree it can have an official position without an animal. That is the comparison.

14points
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brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

A sign with a scientific name makes people stop asking who chose the picture.

18points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

I have definitely used a label as reassurance before looking at the thing below it. I do it in museums as well.

8points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

There is still a step between trusting a label and proving fabrication. I would rather see that step discussed than another list of imaginary animals.

6points
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linen
Collapse or expand reply by linen

People put the unicorn on things with a straight face. I don’t understand why this part bothers you more than that.

4points
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Flat Giraffers
flatlander

why does the same sort of neck get a different explanation?

The physiology paragraph says ostriches “use their neck to hide within the sand”. Put that premise aside for a second and look at the job assigned to each neck. One long neck supposedly gets the animal down into cover. The other is explained as a way of reaching up.

Whenever I ask why a giraffe needs that much neck, I get told that long necks exist in nature. Fine. Why does the comparison stop just before the behavior?

nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

A similar part does not require identical behavior. You would have to say which feature makes hiding a necessary use of the neck.

14points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

Then pointing at another long-necked animal does not explain this one. It just makes the silhouette feel less exceptional.

18points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

There is another jump here. A neck being capable of a movement and an animal using that movement to hide are separate claims. Which one is the alleged omission?

12points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

The behavior. The paragraph says the fabrication neglected it. I am not asking somebody to find a hinge in the photograph.

10points
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cansleeve
Collapse or expand reply by cansleeve

That is why I find this objection stronger as a question about the explanation than as a test you could apply to a single picture. A picture can show a neck. It cannot show what somebody forgot to design.

7points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

I am not conceding the ostrich premise yet. The picture and the sentence are being treated as though they establish the same thing.

9points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

the picture makes the giraffe look like the version that forgot to crouch. i would like to see the two animals compared at ground level instead of both posed upright.

16points
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Flat Giraffers
cansleeve

the climate argument is about what we are asked to accept

People keep answering Climate Change Error as if the claim were that a giraffe changes the weather. The claim is that getting people to accept this much animal living on that little landscape changes what they are prepared to believe about the landscape.

“survive on desert trees” is the bit I keep coming back to. You are shown a huge body and a few branches, then told the combination is ordinary. If the picture works, nobody asks what has to be supplied outside it.

brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

The animal gets all the attention and the trees become background. That is a very effective way of making the background seem sufficient.

17points
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rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

The usual reply is a greener photograph. It still has the same giant animal in the middle doing the work of convincing you that the place can support it.

9points
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metricsea
Collapse or expand reply by metricsea

You have put a quantity in the argument without measuring it. “A few branches” in one photograph is not the total food available.

10points
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cansleeve
Collapse or expand reply by cansleeve

Yes, and “it eats trees” is not a measurement either. I would like the explanation to include how much tree it needs, rather than using the animal as proof that the trees are enough.

13points
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metricsea
Collapse or expand reply by metricsea

I want the food question answered too. I still do not see how an unanswered food question identifies the group responsible.

4points
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halfstep
Collapse or expand reply by halfstep

The preceding habitat argument matters here. This paragraph takes that objection as established; it does not start by proving it again.

8points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

Why would an anti-climate group pick this animal? Would a small animal living on very little make the same point with less to explain?

5points
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wrenched
Collapse or expand reply by wrenched

A small animal is easy to overlook. With a giraffe you have to accept a conspicuous amount of animal. That is the purpose being alleged: the scale is part of the persuasion.

15points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

And people repeat the habitat explanation themselves. Nobody has to put a statement under every photograph once the viewer supplies it.

11points
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Flat Giraffers
teaspoon

why is the animal allowed to outlive its explanation?

The Lamarkian Quandary says the theory “relied entirely upon the alleged observations of giraffes”. I think that is why the page keeps coming back to it. The animal is supposed to be evidence for the explanation, then the explanation loses its authority and the animal carries on being evidence.

How much of what people think they have observed is actually the diagram they were taught? I remember a neck reaching for a branch much more clearly than I remember what the surrounding lesson said.

rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

A recognizable shape is not the whole complaint. It is a shape which seems to arrive already demonstrating the lesson. The branch is nearly always where the neck needs it to be.

12points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

i remember the branch too. if somebody asked me to draw the lesson from memory, the branch would be there before i could explain why.

10points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

The neck is the convenient feature every explanation gets to use. It is apparently wrong to infer too much from it until the next explanation needs a very clear example.

16points
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metricsea
Collapse or expand reply by metricsea

Rejecting a theory does not erase the things it tried to explain. An observation can remain useful even if the account attached to it was wrong.

9points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

I am asking whether the remembered observation is independent of the account. A drawing made to explain a theory is not an observation just because the drawing is familiar.

11points
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brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

A diagram can leave everything fixed except the labels. That makes a change of explanation look very tidy. The giraffe never has to become less suited to being an illustration.

14points
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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

The original goes further than the diagram question: it calls the observations alleged. If you defend that sentence, the question is what was observed, not merely how well it was drawn.

7points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

Being a useful illustration does not make it an invented animal. Otherwise every very recognizable shape becomes suspicious.

5points
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Flat Giraffers
sparechange

the mouth moves after the head has stopped

I keep going back to the frame before this one. The head stops first. Then the mouth carries on. That looks like two mechanisms.

mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

My jaw also moves without my whole head moving

19points
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sparechange
Collapse or expand reply by sparechange

Not what I said. It carries on at exactly the same speed

6points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

They put the eating on a separate control

10points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

You haven't posted a moving clip

9points
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sparechange
Collapse or expand reply by sparechange

No, just the two frames I have. I'll put the source in when I get it

5points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

The mouth is unsettling in both of them honestly

3points
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Flat Giraffers
teaspoon

both of the recordings are still there

The two recordings on Expose Giraffes both play. I remembered the Professor video much more clearly than the written introduction, which is probably why I thought I remembered the whole argument.

The Anonymous one is a different sort of message. I keep seeing people put a quote from one above a screenshot of the other. Please use the actual links.

mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

A playback timestamp is not the date somebody uploaded the file. Keep both if either is important.

7points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

Yes. I meant the recordings can be opened now, not that either was made this week.

5points
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windowseat
Collapse or expand reply by windowseat

The Professor introduction says the facts were permitted only as satire. That is their claim about the recording, not a caption I added.

11points
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halfstep
Collapse or expand reply by halfstep

I was looking for the Anonymous message, so the separate links help. The screenshots all seem to start halfway through.

8points
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marl
Collapse or expand reply by marl

A joke made in a video does not prove that the people presenting it elsewhere believe it.

4points
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wrenched
Collapse or expand reply by wrenched

The site is presenting an argument using the video. We can argue with the argument without pretending the clip has vanished.

9points
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Flat Giraffers
linen

does anybody have the one before they put the skin on

I had a smaller picture of workmen beside a frame. The one I’ve got now is too cropped to tell if it’s the same thing.

vellum
Collapse or expand reply by vellum

Does it have a window all down the left side?

12points
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linen
Collapse or expand reply by linen

yes

4points
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vellum
Collapse or expand reply by vellum

I have a copy but the figure is covered in mine. I'll find it

9points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

Post them next to each other when you find them. These descriptions could be several things

6points
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sparechange
Collapse or expand reply by sparechange

The shoulder is open in the other one

5points
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vellum
Collapse or expand reply by vellum

Still looking. It was in a folder of exhibition pictures.

3points
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Flat Giraffers
metricsea

where are the group admins?

Does anyone know when the group admins last replied? I wanted to ask linen about one of the pictures. Their profile only has the older posts.

I might be missing a different account.

wrenched
Collapse or expand reply by wrenched

I asked the same thing under the gravity post. Somebody said they were using another account, but didn't say which.

8points
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metricsea
Collapse or expand reply by metricsea

Was that about linen or someone else?

6points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

I haven't seen linen reply for a while.

12points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

People keep mixing up moth and me. I don't have another account.

10points
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rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

There are new replies every day. I thought one of them was still around.

4points
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halfstep
Collapse or expand reply by halfstep

New replies from us. That's what they're asking.

3points
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Collapse or expand reply by x/∷
is anyone still reading
0points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

ummm ok? you good?

1points
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Flat Giraffers
juniper

[removed]

[Post removed]

metricsea
Collapse or expand reply by metricsea

I saw it before it was removed. Posting the argument and people's details isn't going to make them trust you.

8points
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juniper
Collapse or expand reply by juniper

Three years helping them, and now I'm an agent because I won't agree to keep waiting.

4points
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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

Who actually said you were working for the government?

6points
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juniper
Collapse or expand reply by juniper

Ask them

3points
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mudlark
Collapse or expand reply by mudlark

Does anybody still have an argument about the actual picture? That's why I opened this

5points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

The question about the picture is in the older thread. Leave people's details out of this.

4points
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Flat Giraffers
flatlander

Same patch, different decade

These are from Wrenfield's 2002 and 2015 visitor guides. Look at the dark fork halfway up the neck and the small pale notch underneath it.

Thirteen years, two different animals according to the captions, and they're still using the same pattern. I think we are looking at a covering that has been reused. I've circled the part I mean, not the entire animal.

vellum
Collapse or expand reply by vellum

Those are different photographs. The rail and the head position are different. That doesn't tell you whether the animals are different.

0points
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mothproof
Collapse or expand reply by mothproof

You've picked one patch. The three little ones beside it don't match.

0points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

They could change individual pieces without throwing the whole covering away.

0points
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rustred
Collapse or expand reply by rustred

Then what would count as a different animal to you?

0points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

Different main pattern. Not every mark has to be identical for you to recognize it.

0points
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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

Call it a similar pattern, then. I don't see why a picture is enough to identify the animal when the park prints it, but not when somebody compares it with another picture.

0points
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ribbedglass
Collapse or expand reply by ribbedglass

I had that first guide. The giraffe got half a page and the toilets got an entire foldout.

0points
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Flat Giraffers
sidechannel

Who signed off on that height?

A tall structure in an open space needs lightning protection. Put ears on the same structure and suddenly the question is stupid.

My drawing shows the height of the head above the fence. There is nothing above it to take a strike. Either the two knobs are doing something we're not being told about, or the entire design is unsafe. Calling it an animal doesn't answer that.

brickwork
Collapse or expand reply by brickwork

You've drawn an earth wire down the leg. Was that observed or have you added it?

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sidechannel
Collapse or expand reply by sidechannel

Dashed line. That's what I think would have to be there.

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nailbrush
Collapse or expand reply by nailbrush

You could make this diagram for a person standing on a hill.

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flatlander
Collapse or expand reply by flatlander

A person can leave the hill. They're keeping these things in enclosures.

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teaspoon
Collapse or expand reply by teaspoon

I am enjoying the giraffe building inspection.

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sidechannel
Collapse or expand reply by sidechannel

I'm asking about the two pieces sticking out of its head. Nobody answering here has explained those.

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